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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

The video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjcvk4PwaYI


more specifically from about the 1 minut mark here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgShKshDbA&feature=related
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southern_land

Rep: 155.2
votes: 14


PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Hoogley wrote (View Post):
So, without any forthcoming suggestions considered, I think 3D map making might be out.  I'm not interested in making maps in Maya or similar, as the idea was to use software specialised for map building in order to speed up the process as well as make it look better.  I couldn't be arsed mucking about in a full 3D construction/rendering program.  Partly because I've never really used one before, and it would take time to learn.

Yeah and bear in mind that the region isn't well known for the 3d aspects of its landscape.  However 3d renders could be handy for buildings and maybe even crops in feilds.  Depending on what you're doing with buildings you'll require a minimum of a couple of dozen I'd guess.  I've never really counted but I suspect CC5 only has about 15-18 used in repition
Hoogley wrote (View Post):

I'm going to try for what I gather is pretty similar to the standard method of map construction.  The only philosophy I may have that is different to what I've seen so far is that I am keen to streamline the map making process in order to speed things up.  I intend to collect a palette of photo objects split into categories.  So, each category has a collection of images that are basically tiles that would be placed onto the map canvas, and then worked a little to make it all blend together.  I think the difference is that, whereas the maps I've seen to date are more akin to paintings, this would be closer to collage.  

One idea I had recently (too late for the recent maps production though unfortunately) was to complete one layered photoshop map with all the named layers and their different attributes.   So from the bottom ascending background, stream bed, water, dirt road/paths, surfaced road, brush, long grass, stone fence, wood fence, hedge, shadows, buildings, floor numbers.  Then once you've completed the first map save it, then remove all textures from all layers and "save as" template.

Then crop to the size of your new map (and at this srtage cropping can be done because the map is featureless) save as new name and start adding textures to appropriate layers.

Hoogley wrote (View Post):

The upside is that - after compiling the palette, of course - the map making process should fly, and the maps may even look a little bit more "photo-like".  The downside is that they may stray slightly from 100% accurate, as we are working from a set palette, rather than trying to specifically redraw a particular area to exactness.  I don't think it will stray so far as to be a concern.

This is all theory, of course, as I am yet to successfully build a CC map.   Very Happy  And, if any experienced map makers read this, they may feel compelled to inform me that I am entirely deluded in my assumptions.   Wink
 

I think you might find 'fly' to be a relative term, there are numerous short cuts both in drawing and coding but a new map will still take a new map maker a respectable length of time.  PM me if you want any help or a few shortcuts.  Unfortuantely I need another theatre to concentrate on now so i can't help you physically
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QM

Rep: 49.4


PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

southern_land wrote (View Post):
 Unfortuantely I need another theatre to concentrate on now so i can't help you physically


WEPSTB.  Western Europe Photo Shop Terrain Burnout.


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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
The video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjcvk4PwaYI


more specifically from about the 1 minut mark here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgShKshDbA&feature=related  


That's quite brilliant.  I gather it's a black and white aerial they've coloured.  It looks quite good.  I don't know if you could acheive that over the entire area of this campaign.

Interestingly, the zoom-in from the first video looked just like what I had in my head for what we were talking about breifly in regard to a single map that the entire campaign is played over.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

southern_land - "Yeah and bear in mind that the region isn't well known for the 3d aspects of its landscape."

LMAO.  Very good point.  I'm just toying with the idea at the moment.

southern_land - "Depending on what you're doing with buildings you'll require a minimum of a couple of dozen I'd guess.  I've never really counted but I suspect CC5 only has about 15-18 used in repition"

That sounds bearable; about 20 standard buildings, and I could also build up a number of "special" buildings (church, etc), or alternatively any landmark buildings can be scratch built.

southern_land - "One idea I had recently (too late for the recent maps production though unfortunately) was to complete one layered photoshop map with all the named layers and their different attributes.   So from the bottom ascending background, stream bed, water, dirt road/paths, surfaced road, brush, long grass, stone fence, wood fence, hedge, shadows, buildings, floor numbers.  Then once you've completed the first map save it, then remove all textures from all layers and "save as" template.

Then crop to the size of your new map (and at this srtage cropping can be done because the map is featureless) save as new name and start adding textures to appropriate layers."


Do you mean use each layer as a texture mask, and then draw in the texture for each?  Or are you just referring to the layer structuring?  Either way, I'm a big proponent for templates; it takes away the bulk of the work.  

My mind is locked into thinking in terms of, say, Star Craft, or Far Cry, or any in-game map building software.  So, in that context, I'm thinking "terrain" layers and "object" layers.  The main idea is to delineate which is which.  I figure that anything which can just be square tiled should be a Terrain Layer, and anything which needs placement & alignment is an Object.  So, for example:

Build a photoshop file at the max resolution for tLD maps (4800x4800);
Create a layer bank like, say:
/Terrain + /Earth + Rock, Gravel, Dirt, Mud; + /Water + Muddy, Clear, White; + /Grass + Brush, Dry, Green, Long; etc
/Objects + /Road + /Track, /Dual Tracks, /Dirt, /Semi-sealed, /Sealed; + /Buildings + /House + /Frame, /Roof, Floors + /Small Wood +/Frame, /Roof, Floors , /Large Wood + /Frame, /Roof, Floors, /Small Brick + /Frame, /Roof, Floors, /Large Brick + /Frame, /Roof, Floors; + /Crops + /Cabbages, /Wheat, /Barley, /Low GI Non-Pesticide Grain, etc.  You get the idea.

Each Terrain Layer is composed of tiling each texture to fill the entire map space, and you use it as a layer mask to draw in each texture.  Each Object Layer has a single instance of each object, and you copy the layers to add extra objects.  So, you basically set this up once - which will take bloody forever - and then you have a photoshop map template that... well, hell, anybody could use, I guess.  Most importantly, I could use the same template to make all the maps I need.

Again, I've never created a map before, so this is pure theory.  And, it only addresses the imagery of a battle map; it's not a solution for coding.

Thoughts, southern_land?  Or anybody with experience, for that matter?


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

I've started to do some research on the Jerrys during Market Garden, and I found this page with a brief description of the battle, info regarding Royal Engineers during the operation and a small hand drawn map of the area around the bridge itself...

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/campaign/rem_campaign_market-garden.htm


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Here's an example using the PS map making template I'm working on.  Just something simple: blue water, sand, sparse grass, medium grass, full grass.  All are preset layers that you just use the layer mask to paint on the textures with a brush.  No mucking about; just straight in and texture.

Verdict?



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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

More experimentation with the template.  I think I've got the muddy water down now.  There's a bit of an art to getting the edges to look like wash, but it's still relatively simple.

There's a flaw in the bridge surface tile; can anyone see it?  :]



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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Had you never done any maps before?!?
-BS!  Wink

Anyway, damn good job so-far. Think it can get really good in the end.  Smile


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Had you never done any maps before?!?
-BS!  Wink

Anyway, damn good job so-far. Think it can get really good in the end.  Smile


LMAO.  Nope.  I'm an artist, but I've only tried once before to make a map (for this mod, actually), and it was utter crap.  I'd decided it was better to get someone experienced to do it, but failing that... here I am learning a new skill.  ;]


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Pete

Rep: 118.1
votes: 12


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Those are without a doubt the best first attempts at drawing CC maps ever! I amazed about how well you have managed to draw a typical river bank. The transition from bank to grass field is spot on and the grass texture is also just about perfect. Is it one of Dodam's?. Point of note: river breakwaters are constructed of heavy rock and can be covered with vegetation.
Anyway, with your skills you could have this mod finished within 2 years  Smile


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
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QM

Rep: 49.4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Nice work Hoogs, keep it up mate.

Bridge tile appears repetative if thats what you mean.  Use the clone tool to blur from a cleaner area of the pavement if you are concerned about it that is, otherwise, great detail.


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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 72.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Verdict?


Superb!

Hoogley wrote (View Post):
There's a flaw in the bridge surface tile; can anyone see it?  :]


Either the repetition of the rectangular segments or the lack of a structure to cast such shadows on the water?
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the compliments.  

Seriously though, when I'm finished with this template (which will have to be just for basic Western Front maps for now), I'll find a way to upload it - it's very easily going to be over a gigbyte! - and I'd encourage anybody to give it a go.  Ignoring the incomplete bridge for the moment, everything else was very simply brushed on using a layer mask.  There isn't really any fancy brush techniques going on here.  The waters edge is probably the hardest thing to do; I used a standard size 64 circular diffused edge brush @ 15% pressure to slowly brush in the waters edge so it had a little bit of transparency to show through the sand.  But, the "lapping water" effect on the edge is not brushed; it's a layer effect.  So, like I said, what I've shown so far required very little artistic ability; the hard part is compiling the photoshop template.  Actually, I'll amend that statement; certain "landmark" objects will probably have to be scratch built, as I can't account for everything in the template.  But, that said, I'm hoping it will firstly get people who wouldn't make maps to give it a go, and also hopefully provide a tool for experienced map makers to speed things up a bit.  We'll see if I can live up to my own hype!

I've still got a bit to do yet; I have a number of Terrain Layers left to do, and I haven't made any Object Layers yet.  

The textures are all freshly collected from the interweb.  I'm trying to hand select textures that will blend well together.

The bridge map image is a quick "trace over" of a google map of present day Nijmegen Bridge.  Seriously, ignore the bridge; it's a quick fill in.  Although, I quite like my shadow.

I think I made too much of a big deal about the bridge flaw.  It's a small thing; the right edge is an inverted copy of the left, so if you compare the shading of the edging closely you'll start to realise that it looks wrong.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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southern_land

Rep: 155.2
votes: 14


PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

very nice looking maps
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Go Hoogley go! Smile
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.2
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Looks great!  Can't wait to download and play around with the PSD template!
Great work, Hoogley!
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Do you guys know how unbelievingly hard it is to find intel on German forces during OMG?!?  Shocked

-At least when you leave the Arnhem-area and don't looking for armoured units (damn, there are peps out there that have listed every vehicle in SS Pz.Aufklär. Abt. 9 and the 107th armoured brigade...) I have the Ryan and Kershaw books, think I'm going to order the Osprey book "Arnhem 1944: Operation Market Garden" too and I have found a handful of internet pages and forums as well (among them Polemarchos post here: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1506...)
 
Anyone got some tips, ideas or intel, just send me a PM or something, any help is good ATM.  Crying or Very sad


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Do you guys know how unbelievingly hard it is to find intel on German forces during OMG?!?  Shocked

-At least when you leave the Arnhem-area and don't looking for armoured units (damn, there are peps out there that have listed every vehicle in SS Pz.Aufklär. Abt. 9 and the 107th armoured brigade...) I have the Ryan and Kershaw books, think I'm going to order the Osprey book "Arnhem 1944: Operation Market Garden" too and I have found a handful of internet pages and forums as well (among them Polemarchos post here: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1506...)
 
Anyone got some tips, ideas or intel, just send me a PM or something, any help is good ATM.  Crying or Very sad


Ahhh, 7A_Woulf.  Welcome to my hell.  Actually, it's our shared hell now.   Mr. Green  Glad you enlisted?


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Question - Has anybody ever tried giving a squad more than one crewed weapon?  What happened?  Did the engine deal with it, or will it freak out?

The reason for asking is that I have at least one squad type that has a Bren and 2x PIATs, so I'm wondering if there's a way to allow all three weapons to be picked up by another team member if the carrier goes down.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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