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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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mooxe

Rep: 221.7
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

This event has probably affected in some way everyone at this forum.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413#

It's still unbelievable to watch. Knowing but not seeing that 3000 people are dieing before your eyes is disturbing.


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US_Brake

Rep: 24.2
votes: 22


PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

The NY Times has an article that helps shed light on the so called Ground Zero Mosque Controversy. As an American Vet I am proud that I served a country that has religious freedom. I find it an insult that Americans are attacking our citizens rights to worship God in Lower Manhattan or anywhere else.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?ref=us


This war, like all wars is bad for everyone. It's frustrating to think, of how much better the world would be in 2010, if this war had never happened.




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Priapus

Rep: 18.6
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

US_Brake wrote (View Post):
This war, like all wars is bad for everyone. It's frustrating to think, of how much better the world would be in 2010, if this war had never happened.


I prefer a relatively Taliban free Afghanistan and a relatively democratic Iraq compared to the former regimes.
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:40 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Well, I remember to the second where I was and what I was doing when the news broke, and I suspect I always will.

I too would like a relatively free world, but I am not convinced we are any more free or safe as a result of the consequences and subsequent reactions.  Quite the contrary.  Would we be any safer if we had not invaded Iraq or Afghanistan?  In my opinion, yes.  Has it been worth the terror, bloodshed, and pain?  Not in my opinion.  Were there other ways?  I believe so.

There are nutcases and extremists on both sides of the fence. An eye for an eye just makes people blind to paraphrase Ghandi, and you cannot justify your own behaviour on the basis of others' behaviour.

Freedom is something you have to give.  You cannot 'take' it, only take it away.

So while we remember the horrors of that dreadful day, be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that you have a divine right to judge others, and force them into situations which you in their place would object to.

Just as I refuse to condemn all Americans on the basis that some religious idiot wants to burn the Koran, I refuse to condemn all Muslims because of their equally idiotic and dangerous extremists.  To do so would make me no better than them...
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

What's wrong about burning Koran? It's not like there's any possibility of the world running out of copies of that book.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

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US_Brake

Rep: 24.2
votes: 22


PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

If Bin Laden had chosen to build hospitals in Afghanistan instead of sparking a third world war the Planet might be a better place. It bothers me that a small group of men could cause such a worldwide catastrophe.

John Patrick O'Neill (February 6, 1952 – September 11, 2001)

FBI Agent John O'Neill was the hot on the trail of Bin Laden after the Cole Bombing. He may have prevented or disrupted the 9/11 attacks, however, he was judged too aggressive in his job and was removed from the investigation by the Bush Administration. John O'Neill left the FBI and took the job of head of security at the WTC becouse he was convinced that Al Q was planning another attack. He's stayed in the building helping victims until the building fell, ending his remarkable life.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._O'Neill




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kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Therion wrote (View Post):
What's wrong about burning Koran? It's not like there's any possibility of the world running out of copies of that book.

What starts with the burning of books, usually finishes with the burning of people.

If I was an American I'd surely want that Islamic centre to be built near the G.0, as well as I'd like that the ridicilous bill of laws regarding the "natiojnal security", invoked after the 911 attack, ro be revoked.
For one reason only.
[Let's say for the sake of argument that the WHOLE 911 "job" was exclusively done by the I]slamic extemists who did the attack didn't strike only economic centre and the people working there, but the "western" civilization as a whole. Therefore introduction of any law that abrogates human and/or citizen's rights, or creation of the particular "atmosphere" by certain groups represents the victory for the architects of 911 crime.
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Quote:
What's wrong about burning Koran?


Perhaps nothing, if you burn your own private copy in the privacy of your own home, in private, but better to read it and gain more knowledge which you can then use to improve your understanding.

But why broadcast the intention to burn the Koran?  What do you think he was trying achieve?  Global peace and understanding?
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US_Brake

Rep: 24.2
votes: 22


PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Parallels can be drawn on the Chalie Manson Family Murders in 1969. Manson wanted to spark a race war. He used his minions to do the dirty work. After murdering their victims they smeared black panther slogans with the victims blood.

Did Mansen get his wish? No, No Race war happened. However, after that, the people who already dislike the counter-culture now associated the counter-culture with Manson. The anti-hippies now had a hippy poster child, Charles Manson, and the war on drugs (war on counter-culture) driven by fear and hysteria was on.




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dj

Rep: 157.5
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Priapus wrote (View Post):
US_Brake wrote (View Post):
This war, like all wars is bad for everyone. It's frustrating to think, of how much better the world would be in 2010, if this war had never happened.


I prefer a relatively Taliban free Afghanistan and a relatively democratic Iraq compared to the former regimes.


Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11...no matter how many times Bush/Cheney kept trying to spin it around.  Their former cabinet said they were trying to make a case for war with Iraq almost immediately after taking office.

Not worth it considering Bush took his eye off the ball and Osama escaped, then only kept a tiny force in Afganistan as they got ready for invading Iraq instead.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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US_Brake

Rep: 24.2
votes: 22


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Iraq was not responsible for 9/11, but the invasion of Iraq in 2003 could not have happened without 9/11.

If 9/11 would not have happened, Bush would not have had public support to Invade Iraq. Bush fueled Americans' fear and anger then created a false crisis "WMD" along with all the other lies, to justify his invasion.




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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

Quote:
but the invasion of Iraq in 2003 could not have happened without 9/11.


Nor the intimidating "homeland Security" Agenda.  If you have not noticed how significant the move towards adjusting what was generally considered to be public 'rights', then you should take a careful look, and question the establishment justifications (which you should always do anyway in order to try and preserve your 'freedoms').  Once you can be detained indefinately without evidence based on the opinion(s) of whatever 'security' services the State has at its disposal, you are on the way to totalitarianism.  You think Democracy is an unassailable right?  Think again, especially at the history of how Democracy was achieved.

I know there are plenty of Conspiracy Theories around, and I as a rule am sceptical of Conspiracy Theories (as they are by definition difficult or impossible to substantiate), but reviewing the reportage of the events of 9/11 and the surrounding intelligence, there are some things which do not seem to add up in my opinion, and the 'Authorities' seem to be remarkably reluctant to provide compelling answers, even to the point of witholding or destroying information and evidence.  Do you think the 'Media' made open, unbiased reportage?  I am not convinced.

Is anyone here satisfied that the authorities have told the 'truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'?  If not, then you have no alternative but to ask, why not?...
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

The Koran is not number 1 on my burn list. But it is still on the list.

But, if I do burn it, it won't be in private, I will probably burn it on the courthouse steps. After all, if the Mexicans can burn American flags down there, then surely burning a Koran, is no beeg deal, if you know what I mean.

Its amazing to me, how some people sugar coat the fact that they are actually 'truthers'.

Regarding the wars, I wonder if we could have a poll that would enumerate a list of reasons why these wars are being conducted.

We could include the previous Gulf War as well. Does anyone have what they believe is solid reason for US involvement. I might be beneficial to review the bidding. For instance, I doubt seriously, these wars, are simply being fought to test out the new weapons systems and methods. But you never know. Sometimes I think GW just wanted to kick some ass.

My guess, is no matter what the list of reasons, the items are probably all good reasons to go to war, all things considered.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

I think WBC is a pretty cool guy. eh burns koarn and doesnt afraid of anything


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

I thought twice about posting this, but somebody has to put the points...

Quote:
After all, if the Mexicans can burn American flags down there, then surely burning a Koran, is no beeg deal, if you know what I mean.


Nope, I don't know what you mean.  Justifying your own actions based on what others do is suspect logic.  Obviously many disagree.  On that logic, you are 'free' to commit any crimes you like.  In my opinion, it is just an immature testosterone driven retaliation motivation which has more to do with posturing than achieving anything constructive.  Nothing to do with reason.

Example:  on 9/11, a bunch of nutters flew planes into the WTC buildings, and rubbed out thousands of innocent people.  Does that give you the justification to take a couple of planes and fly them into some buildings and rub out thousands of innocent people in return?  That's the logic.  Eye for an eye and all that.

So some nutters burn the American Flag.  Give them more American Flags to burn.  Let them burn British Flags, or all the Flags of the world.  I really don't care.  They are just Flags.  Bits of painted material.

And when has starting a war ever been right?  You have to be very careful of your justifications.

Take Iraq.  There can be no question that the suffering and death caused by the war was immensely larger than would have been experienced if we had not, to combatants and non combatants alike.  So how do you justify such slaughter, for slaughter is what it was.  We slaughtered them in their thousands, probably hundreds of thousands.

Ah, it was to 'free' the Iraqi's.  Well, that is reasonably compelling as an argument, but unfortunately, what can never be reconciled is whether alternatives could have been used (and they were proposed) which would achieved a similar intent, without the slaughter.  That you have to live with.  Just say to the Iraqi families whose children were maimed and killed that it was 'for their own good', and pat yourselves on the back for being the 'good guys'.

I accept that the situation in Iraq in terms of freedom from oppressive regimes is better than it was.  Does that justify the war?  Well, it might, IF it was the only way to achieve it.  Was it?  We will never know, but I accuse those who went to war for not trying, and I am satisfied they are consequently criminals.

So, I'm sorry, but some of you are not going to like the criticism.  Tough shit.  Is the world a safer or more dangerous place as a result of the actions we have taken?  Not the actions they have taken, but what we have done.  We are responsible for that, not them.  To try and place the blame on them is back to the same broken logic.

It seems that the species either cannot, or refuses to learn from history.  Did America achieve Independance because some foreign power intervened?  No, it was the Americans (white settlers for the most part) who made it happen (we won't go into the issue of the native Americans).  Should we help others to achieve 'freedom'?  Of course.  That's not the issue.  It's all in the how.  That is what we have to justify.

Do the ends justify the means, or the means justify the ends?  Or is it neither?  Ultimately, what we do defines us, not what others do.
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

All good points VonB, sadly others just don't get it.

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

vonB wrote (View Post):
I thought twice about posting this, but somebody has to put the points...

Quote:
After all, if the Mexicans can burn American flags down there, then surely burning a Koran, is no beeg deal, if you know what I mean.


Nope, I don't know what you mean.  Justifying your own actions based on what others do is suspect logic.  Obviously many disagree.  On that logic, you are 'free' to commit any crimes you like.  In my opinion, it is just an immature testosterone driven retaliation motivation which has more to do with posturing than achieving anything constructive.  Nothing to do with reason.

Example:  on 9/11, a bunch of nutters flew planes into the WTC buildings, and rubbed out thousands of innocent people.  Does that give you the justification to take a couple of planes and fly them into some buildings and rub out thousands of innocent people in return?  That's the logic.  Eye for an eye and all that.

Actually, the mere fact that people get seriously butthurt about burning a special magical item or drawing a cartoon, is a good reason to do it as often as possible.

vonB wrote (View Post):
And when has starting a war ever been right?  You have to be very careful of your justifications.

Take Iraq.  There can be no question that the suffering and death caused by the war was immensely larger than would have been experienced if we had not, to combatants and non combatants alike.  So how do you justify such slaughter, for slaughter is what it was.  We slaughtered them in their thousands, probably hundreds of thousands.

Ah, it was to 'free' the Iraqi's.  Well, that is reasonably compelling as an argument, but unfortunately, what can never be reconciled is whether alternatives could have been used (and they were proposed) which would achieved a similar intent, without the slaughter.  That you have to live with.  Just say to the Iraqi families whose children were maimed and killed that it was 'for their own good', and pat yourselves on the back for being the 'good guys'.

I accept that the situation in Iraq in terms of freedom from oppressive regimes is better than it was.  Does that justify the war?  Well, it might, IF it was the only way to achieve it.  Was it?  We will never know, but I accuse those who went to war for not trying, and I am satisfied they are consequently criminals.

The guys that did the whole Iraq war thing should spend rest of their lives in prison. But no, politicians, judges, leaders of big companies, all that powergrabbing scum don't have to be held accountable for their actions.


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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

And i feel for the people in Afghanistan who had to pay the price for this tragedy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

And if this statistics is acurate..well..i really dont know what to say... Crying or Very sad

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
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platoon_michael

Rep: 56.2
votes: 25


PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 Nine Years Later Reply with quote

vonB wrote (View Post):
Well, I remember to the second where I was and what I was doing when the news broke, and I suspect I always will.


Freedom is something you have to give.  You cannot 'take' it, only take it away.



I find that to be completely inaccurate or am I misunderstanding the point?

Freedom is something you have to want in order for it to be achieved.
Democracy will never work in Iraq because most people don't want it and the others wont fight for it.

I say burn the Koran and I like the proposed law in France to ban Muslim Veils.

As for Sapa's poor body count I can't have any remorse for so called innocent people who died when these are the same people who won't stand up to Terrorists or the government who either supports it,or just can't grasp the idea of making life better for their own people.
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