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Tejszd

Rep: 130.8
votes: 19


PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Disenchated Reply with quote

I'm not trying to discredit Mooxe, I just disagree with his and some others view that the re-releases haven't added to the game. Mooxe and I have chatted about that before. The unfortunate thing for anyone already not into CC they are being told these game are bad so they will never join the community/play....

I agree with you that path finding is a huge improvement and was a long time coming. The isometric views of vehicles and buildings was nice but for vehicles at least there is not a single mod with them.

The core engine changes have not been huge agreed, though the AI has been tweaked a lot but there are those who argue it was made better and worse.

I'm not a developer but have been a beta tester of the re-releases and argued for changes/features I thought were good, losing and winning some along the way.

Would have loved to see more enhancements myself since 2007 when COI was released but the team is amazingly small and supposedly the code was a mess. No money comes to the testers; we get a chance to influence the game, play it early and get a copy. That is it.

As for my sights for CC, they were much higher back in 2000 when I bought my fifth CC game CC5 but Atomic delivered a very buggy game and then when out of business before releasing a fully tested patch. I still played the game for years and liked it enough to put in tons of time fixing/updating mods that ran on CC5 (Meuse and Bloody Omaha). By 2003/2004 all I wanted was a fixed CC5 for the mods to run on. Fast forward to 2007 and the re-releases started;
COI - a few bug fixes, new campaign and updates for newer Operating Systems
CCMT - a few bug fixes and updates for newer Operating Systems
WAR - fixed CC5 bugs, new game, a few new features and updates for newer Operating Systems
TLD - everything in WAR plus a new game and new features
LSA - everything in TLD plus new game and a lot of new features

Must admit I was like many here who just wanted a patched CC5 and then started to want enhancements too. But unlike some here I still think progress has been made and that my original wish for CC5 did come true. I feel the new versions provide enough benefits that I moved Meuse to TLD/WAR just like Cathartes who is moving GJS to TLD. So not everybody thinks what was added, didn't add to the game.... But if people do not see value then that is okay, I'm happy playing/testing Meuse on TLD anyway....



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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Since TLD there has been some worthwhile updates.

But the release of CoI started things off on the wrong foot. The developers (Simtek/S3T/Black Hand/Matrix?) were honest about what was to be expected and released just what they said they would. The only problem was the price and the predicament it put those of us who had CC3 already. Why would one who already owned CC3 buy CoI when all it really was was CC3 plus existing mods? The excuse for a lack of new, original content was that Matrix, the publisher, had a timeline! To top it off, people who had legitimate criticism were getting ridiculed by the developers and groupies.


Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

OK Tejszd,

Now I am losing my patience a little, and I don't want to, because as I said before, you are a nice guy and all.

But if your screenie, is supposed to show some of this added value to "the games" then it missed the mark by a mile.

First off, on my 32" LCD if you look at that screenie at the wrong angle, it looks like an OUTER SPACE GAME.

And what is that, 2 instances of TLD running in seperate windows? I DON'T GET IT. Is that really what it does? If so, HOW MUCH VALUE DOES THAT ADD? Tell me, this was just Photoshopped.

You were supposed to be testing the games, but instead you were lobbying for new features, like that spotlight view. Was that your IDEA?

While you were ADDING VALUE to the games, YOU NEGLECTED to finish debugging CCMT. Thanks a lot.  Exclamation
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Quote:
Simtek had their very insular agenda


And that shows you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about... and so can continue to be ignored.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

I don't think Tejszd spent any time at all on CCMT.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


The pic above is called a montage.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/montage

Note: Definition supplied for troger and stwa
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Nor did anyone else, apparently.

But he said he was a "tester" for the re-releases.  Question

I asked if he photoshopped it. [DUH]  Exclamation

Note: Definition supplied for Schrecken
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

HERE are the CCMT Testers  Exclamation

Its CREEPY, but Schrecken keeps popping up.  Arrow
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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

I have to agree with Troger on the amount of patch's
You wouldn't believe how many errors I still find in WAR.

It's almost comical when I find them because you then know no one is Beta testing them.
The last one I sent schrecken was the Wheels of the German Half-track show up on the Allied Sherman on the Command Screen after selecting your continued Op or GC.
In my current GC against the AI, I've used the Save Game Editor to move the German BG's as they just don't seem to advance even when they have no opposition.
I play 1 Battle os the Germans then go back to playing as Allies only to discover that the AI assign's support to Allied BG's that in some cases wont even need it,wont even see Battle that turn.

Compound that with the fact that this was the first release just makes one wonder how can there still be so many bugs?



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Last edited by platoon_michael on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Ya, these clowns haven't caught on to the fact that fixing the bugs BEFORE THE GAME IS RELEASED is  Arrow

ADDED VALUE  Exclamation

I have noticed gadget misalignments in the Debrief Screen for CCMT that were present in CCM, and NEVER fixed.

These guys don't think that kind of stuff is important.

This is how Tejszd described the COI and CCMT projects, after the fact.

COI - a few bug fixes, new campaign and updates for newer Operating Systems
CCMT - a few bug fixes and updates for newer Operating Systems


Ya see, he is trying to say, the object was to just fix a FEW bugs. That was the goal. NEVER MIND the REMAINING BUGS.   Exclamation
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LostTemple

Rep: 59.2
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

everyone knows LSA and TLD are crap.
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
trogs... you just need to learn how to play.

I assault all day and all night... ask my battered opponents.


I ask this here because I do not want to clutter Cathartes' GJS for TLD thread.

Was assaulting not an issue in stock CoI? Is it not an issue in stock LSA? I ask stock because I have not tried the patches for either.

It actually doesn't seem to be an issue in TLD with the latest patch. But in stock LSA it's as bad as stock CoI, far too many 'enemy spotted's' followed by an order rejection ("redeploying stopped by attack") then a about face and crawling the other way. More then enough people have commented that they don't like this. Instead of ridiculing people, why not promote a change and reversion back to what it was like?

Many, myself included, brought up this criticism with CoI when it first came out. Upon voicing our concerns we were met negatively and disregarded by those associated with the project. I think that sort of set the tone for these remakes. I didn't like the fact that something that was never really broken in the original was getting toyed with all of a sudden.

LSA and TLD have definitely made some changes for the better.


Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:39 am; edited 4 times in total
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dj

Rep: 149
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

I don't know the financials or the books for the re-release efforts...however I am willing to wager that the budget was 1% of the typical big gaming company projects.  It's not like we can "blame" Simtek or the people that worked on the production.  Because they did the best they could considering how few resources were available.

The overall production budgets for CC2 and CC3 when Microsoft was involved probably was 100x more than CC4 / CC5...and maybe 1000x more than the re-releases.  Volunteers had to do testing and it was done on a shoe-string budget.

IT projects are like this on a routine basis...unless there is a firm commitment to SPEND $$$ by the corporate bigshots...do not be surprised when the final product
fails to meet expectations.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

WOW   Rolling Eyes  Exclamation

In December of 2010, there were over 24,000 people logged on to Matrix on one day, a new all time record. Most of them probably shopping for products.

Matrix regards the fierce demand for these games, with so much confidence , it is boderline arrogance. Old unemployed males will help build and sell the games for free, and will pay for them in advance, before they are finished.

Over the past few years, The European Union Member nations have passed laws, in an attempt, to protect consumers from unscrupulous software producers who are knowingly selling (licensing) softare that is not complete, or not functioning as adverstised.

The States will do the same, once a sufficient body of complaints arrive at the Attorney General's office. The main issue or allegation is FRAUD.

Small software compainies are simply willing participants in said FRAUD, and will not be exempt from future consumer protection laws.
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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

I blame them for working on multiple games at the same time instead of focusing on one game.
Thus leaving me with a game that STILL needs a patch.
And my support for this is what?
This October will be 3 years since WAR came out.
And like a DUMB-ASS I bought the freaking thing when it came out for $50(I considered it supporting CC at the time)

Look at the WAR forums at Matrix,
No one posts there because no one is playing it.
If they were playing it there would be many posts of the current bugs.
No posts on bugs means NO ONE is playing WAR.


I want LSA but I wont be paying $50 for it.
It will either be used years from now for $5-$10 or obtained by some other means.


And I blame Mooxe for bringing this topic up every few months.
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
Small software compainies are simply willing participants in said FRAUD, and will not be exempt from future consumer protection laws.


I think we are dealing with developers that have been learning to navigate and mend the code while working on the remakes.

While they have learned how to navigate it, those of us who have been here since the originals are left behind the eight ball - it's hard to justify paying the money they ask each remake when we already have workable originals (w/ quality mods).
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
I blame them for working on multiple games at the same time instead of focusing on one game.
Thus leaving me with a game that STILL needs a patch.
And my support for this is what?
This October will be 3 years since WAR came out.
And like a DUMB-ASS I bought the freaking thing when it came out for $50(I considered it supporting CC at the time)

Look at the WAR forums at Matrix,
No one posts there because no one is playing it.
If they were playing it there would be many posts of the current bugs.
No posts on bugs means NO ONE is playing WAR.


What are the problems with WAR? I am curious as I have never truly spent time with it.
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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Hmmmmmm  Evil or Very Mad
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Tejszd

Rep: 130.8
votes: 19


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

platoon_michael,

WAR does still have some kinks, which it really shouldn't after almost 3 years, but at least they are mainly cosmetic. As you have already pointed out with the halftrack wheels being wrongly left on screen over the Sherman tank tracks on command screen.

But at almost 3 years after WAR was released what support have you rec'd;

- a patch to make WAR  compatible with TLD mods. Do CC5 mods work on CC4?
- a patch adding the LSA path finding enhancement that came out after LSA was released (LSA is 2 releases after WAR). Did Atomic add CC5 features to CC3 (two releases back)?

If you go here http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/ you will see Bloody Omaha and Ground Tactics available on both WAR and TLD web pages.


Last edited by Tejszd on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Again, Tejszd lowers the standard by re-iterating one of the lamest arguments in the industry.

Translation: Matrix will take care of platoon_michael, after a three year wait,  Arrow

but NEVERMIND the customers of the day.

The vast majority of sales for these titles and others come from IMPULSE BUYING. Some are dedicated as Christams gifts, and most games are used for a period of a few months at best by most consumers for entertainment purposes. These people will NEVER SEE patches or mods three years down the road.

The game producers, and guys like Tejszd KNOW THIS, and use it to their advantage. Once a title gets to an operational (but not debugged) status, they shove off for the the next title or REVENUE STREAM.
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Tejszd

Rep: 130.8
votes: 19


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Disenchanted Reply with quote

Can't argue with you Stwa that the quality of software (console, computer, etc.) seems to be less than the past. But then again it is selectively forgotten on CCS how buggy CC5 is and it was released in 2000. Why are Atomic's CC5 bugs over looked?

CCS being around 7 years after CC5 was released and before the re-releases proves though that a lot of people do play and patch CC for years after the release date. I think those added features to WAR almost 3 years after going on sale do add value. You didn't answer/comment if you can play CC5 mods on CC4? Or if CC5 features were added to CC3 after CC5 was released? Matrix/S3T have back ported features to older re-releases but they are evil and do not support their products Confused
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