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Is TRSM balanced or not?
Yes
35%
 35%  [ 5 ]
No
42%
 42%  [ 6 ]
It depends
21%
 21%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 14

CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

The reason for making this thread are the doubts both I and some of my opponents have had in regard to the grand campaign, being balanced or not? And although I have had my doubts I think now the GC is in-fact balanced.

It is no secret that when playing 20-minute rounds and using the no-movement rule in turn one, those weak German Battle Groups on the beach, can be overrun by any competent allied player, in that very first turn. However, even so I still think the game is balanced.

See, already in turn two it is possible to move the remaining German BGs back to Bayeux, Thaon and Hermanville. One BG is already deployed in Buron, making Lebissey Woods the only gap in the line, however, not reachable for the allies before turn three (June 7th AM). And in turn three a German BG (with Panzers) can move into Lebissey Woods from Caen, turning the map into a meeting-engagement-map, where both sides has support available.
 
The Bayeux-Lebissey line is is also out of range of Allied Naval Artillery and since it can be manned with BGs already from turn two, it makes the Naval Artillery insignificant for the rest of the game, unless that is, the German player decide and manage to push forward. Furthermore, the BL line consist of maps of either a good size, or having plenty of obstacles; thus they tend to slow down movements for the Allied player, who is already fighting against time, before those German reserves reach the front.

These reserves start moving from turn two and onwards. So the German player has to make a stand for 1½ - 2 days, in the BL line, until those much better German BGs can move in and take over. And when they do the arrive the tactical-balance evens out. Also, in those campaigns where the German player is in-fact able to hold some of those fragile beach-maps, for two turns or more, the overall German situation improves significantly.

Thus, it should be possible to hold the BL-line until reinforcements arrive in strength between the 8th and 9th of June.


Although the Allied player has superior Battle Groups from turn 1 and a mix of superior and average onwards, plus the option to reinforce, that allied timetable still has to be reached - before the German player can reinforce the BL line.

At the moment I am playing two casual campaigns in TRSM, playing each side, using both perceptions, making me conclude the GC is balanced. As you can see on the map below, it is possible to fill up the BL-line in turn 2 (except for Lebissey Woods).



TRSM 982 German Bayeux - Lebissey Woods Line Turn 2.jpg
 Description:
In turn 2 the German BGs can retreat to the BL line. From turn 3 German reserves move in - in force.
 Filesize:  689.97 KB
 Viewed:  11470 Time(s)

TRSM 982 German Bayeux - Lebissey Woods Line Turn 2.jpg


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tigercub

Rep: 23.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

I think its a not so hard to win for the Allied, sure not for the first 14 to 16 days but the germans just run out of tanks and guns in the long run..if you know what ya doing you can grind them down.yes the germans can counter attack but that only a temperary setback and can be costly for then!

Not beening able to dig in does not help this and not being able to place guns in buildings  (50mm most inportantly)

not sure what the tank numbers are for both sides now i did add it up one time

for me GJS is a better Balanced Campaign but the Historial Data and sounds of TRSM are better IMHO

once it says allied victory in the campaign screen thats what it is! dont think there is any going back from that!

Tiger


The best Target is the one you just Hit!

Started with CC1 Demo
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Well you and I are playing the GC at the moment, so eventually time will tell if the GC is balanced when your German elite BGs arrives. However, when that's said, I think you done some pretty good damage to my allied forces already. That both in tanks knocked out and obstructing my timetable. In our campaign it is now the 7th and still I haven't taken all the beach-maps.

I think the tank numbers are located around some 3-400 each? The allies have more infantry and support than the Germans, not sure if its a 2:1 but it is mensurable more.

In regard to the German situation, many of the reserve BGs entering from Turn 2 and onwards, are well equipped for defensive fighting and since the terrain in overall favours the defender, its obvious to me at least, that as long as the German player - play like you have played against me on Creully, even with that somewhat poor BG from the 352nd, any allied advance will become costly.

Once the German reserves have reached the BL-line, its either a slow or very costly advance, for most of not close to all allied players. The German player can even begin to pull put his Panzer BGs from the 10th or so, and hold them back while his grenadier-BGs deplete the allied advance. Just like I did in Operation Exploring the Gap, where I only rarely used my Lehr Panzer BG, and close to constantly used my Grenadier BGs instead.

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9407
 
Once the allied player has lost the edge in tanks, then any advance crawl to a halt, since there are no tanks left to suppress that small two-crewed deadly Mg42.
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tigercub

Rep: 23.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

just went and looked at the tank numbers Germans 266 not including AC/HT and the like!

Allied 460 tanks not including AC/HT and allso not including reinforcing the Allied battle Groups

these settings would be Recruit/Recruit the game is normaly played elite/elite so germans get about 200 and the Allied after reinforcement around 700 Tanks

Sure its not all about tanks there are many things to take into account.

Tiger


The best Target is the one you just Hit!

Started with CC1 Demo
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Thanks for the numbers Tiger. I have no idea how to find them my self? Is CC-reg able to extract them somehow?

In regard to the argument about tank superiority, 200 versus 700 is very fair in my opinion.

Look at those numbers from that 90% purely defensive operation (exploring the gap). I only attacked when I really needed getting an area back. We fought for some 10-12 days, thus 20 - 24 turns, over a few maps-only. I lost 9 few panzer (of which some were Marders) - but my opponent lost 62 tanks!



My losses consisted mostly of Marders and Jagdpanzers, perhaps I lost a single Panzer IVH also?

Loss-ratio above is 1 to 6, meaning that 200 Panzers versus 700 allied Tanks is more than enough, for the German player to defend-only.  If we use the operational results from above, it means that around the 16th or 18th of June, the German players should have been able to knock out some 600 allied tanks while loosing only 100 him self in the process. The remaining German tanks can then make a push in the last week of the campaign.

Eventually it all comes down to strategical, operational and tactical play. If the German player is too bold with his tanks and infantry, before the last week of the Campaign, he will experience his BGs being cut off, one by another. And then the campaign is not that balanced.

But making it possible not to be cut off, from turn 2 and onwards, then the campaign is not only fair, but I would suggest slightly in the German favour.


Last edited by CC_CO on Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I believe the numbers are (same for all difficulties):
315 for the germans (including Marders)
870 for the Allies (including M10, M10C, Stuarts, Tetrarchs, Crusaders).

GC devides these numbers by 1/3 for both sides.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Hi Dima,

Thanks for the numbers. So if I understand it correctly, its 210 panzers versus 580 tanks. That's more than enough Tiger.


Below a screen of our operational losses in our present campaign. We are at June 7th, - Turn 1 - Battle 3 or 4?
Look at the loss ratio already here; Tiger (Germany) 4 Marders lost, Me (Allied) 24 Tanks lost.



GC0014.jpg
 Description:
Operational losses from our present campaign.
 Filesize:  105.39 KB
 Viewed:  11430 Time(s)

GC0014.jpg


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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Just found the last operational screen from Dimas and Stalkys campaign. German losses has almost reached the 210-marker, thus the German panzer-numbers has to be higher than 210, because at June the 16th, not all German Panzer BGs has entered the theatre. 2nd Panzer Division enters on June the 26th, although Im not sure how many Panzers it has available.

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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

The statistics need some more details to give a better representation of the forces. I have made a fast count:

German Force:
Tanks 244
TD 50
Jpz 30
Stug 9
Total: 333
In a GC that’s equal to 220


UK Force:
Medium tanks: 312
TD: 94
Total: 406
In a GC that’s equal to 270
And yes, the UK can the reinforce one time. Lets say for argues sake that the mubers are the same after reinforce that’s equal to 540 UK tanks/TD



The ratios are thus 220 German tanks/TD/Jpz/Stug vs 540 UK Medium tanks/TDs


The German force is of another quality compared to UK force.
Germans tanks only includes a few Mk3, and the rest is Mk4 and many Mk5 and a few Mk6. All tanks are able to take out any UK tank. The Jpz are superb as tank hunters, the TD can take out any UK tank at any angle.

The UK tanks are not of the same quality. Only few FF, and many many tanks with regular 75mm guns. The tanks also includes AVRE, Churchill’s Crocs etc, and 95mm infantry gun tanks.

The Germans are also defending in three rows of maps with AT guns if he so which, in a landscape perfect for defence. The Germans also has some quality close combat AT ability, vs the UKs PIAT.


Not counted are the UK light tanks = 47 , AC = 229 and Uni Arriers/Vickers = 151.  Not counted are the Germans AC, 250HT with 75 mm guns who are able… And the 233/266 some with 5cm L60 guns and the rest of the HTs..
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Thanks for the details Stalky.

Thus plenty of guns on wheels or tracks, for the German player.

Trying to reach a conclusion; the start of the campaign is frustrating for the German player, however, the inland-fight is just as frustrating for the allied player, thus conclusively TRSM 982, is a balanced campaign.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Quote:
Just found the last operational screen from Dimas and Stalkys campaign. German losses has almost reached the 210-marker, thus the German panzer-numbers has to be higher than 210, because at June the 16th, not all German Panzer BGs has entered the theatre. 2nd Panzer Division enters on June the 26th, although Im not sure how many Panzers it has available.

Campaign debrief doesn't indicate killed tanks only but shows number of tanks damaged/immobilized/captured/killed.
So basing on the screen 207 tanks were damaged/immobilized/captured/killed for me.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Yes my bad Dima, I forgot CCV accumulates all the armour events as cumulative losses.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

At the moment I am Playing the Wehrmacht in two casual GCs, thus I have now seen what happens when the German side does not pull back in turn 2; the allied player simply pushes his BGs in-land, regarding of them being cut-off or not. Thus vital German maps are in danger of being taken before the reserves arrives.

Thus when the Wehrmacht player decides to make a stand in the second row, it endangers the loss of the third (BL-line). More precisely its the following maps the allied player might get access to, from the strategic movement phase, in turn 3.

    Lebissey Woods
    Buron
    Thaon
    Bayeux


On note, the BL option naturally depends on which exits the allied player capture in turn 1.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

3 out of 10 have voted It Depends. Well, in principle I agree that it depends on the player skills involved in the GC, however, when you have equal skilled players, the TRSM GC is balanced.

For the German player too feel the GC is balanced, the first two days are of out most importance. Its all about thinking the situation through thoroughly. Both on the strategic and the tactical level.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Okay having played two GCs until the 10th as both Germans and the allies, a few thoughts in terms of balanced game play.

1. The German side need a few heavy artillery pieces like the Centur or Avre. I think at least the 21st Panzer did have some self-propelled 105's pieces available from June 6th, so incorporating them is not unrealistic. The German side need these weapons to soften up an area about to be attacked, and to weaken strong points too.

2. The allied side should have at least some air reconnaissance the first days of the campaign, thus at least some Intel on German BG movements behind the front.

3. On every map there should be a small German BG, only company size perhaps, like in LSA. In that way the allies cant just advance unhindered when the German player makes big mistakes in the first two days.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Hi CC_CO,

Quote:
1. The German side need a few heavy artillery pieces like the Centur or Avre. I think at least the 21st Panzer did have some self-propelled 105's pieces available from June 6th, so incorporating them is not unrealistic. The German side need these weapons to soften up an area about to be attacked, and to weaken strong points too.

yes, there will be some in new version for TLD soon Smile.

Quote:
2. The allied side should have at least some air reconnaissance the first days of the campaign, thus at least some Intel on German BG movements behind the front

somehow they didn't have in reality and didn't know 12SS was already around Caen.

Quote:
3. On every map there should be a small German BG, only company size perhaps, like in LSA. In that way the allies cant just advance unhindered when the German player makes big mistakes in the first two days.

that will not be, at least in next ver.
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tigercub

Rep: 23.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Hi Dima was thinking about squad changes for the brits we talked about dont realy see what can be done ,brits they were a pretty boring bunch when it came to inf weapons.


CC-CO
Having a change of hart a little?

get to the 16th-18th and then i would like to know what your thinking.

love your AARs

Tiger


The best Target is the one you just Hit!

Started with CC1 Demo
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Hi CC_CO,

Quote:
1. The German side need a few heavy artillery pieces like the Centur or Avre. I think at least the 21st Panzer did have some self-propelled 105's pieces available from June 6th, so incorporating them is not unrealistic. The German side need these weapons to soften up an area about to be attacked, and to weaken strong points too.

yes, there will be some in new version for TLD soon Smile.

Sounds great! In fact it sounds awesome Very Happy  This is very good news - TRSM for TLD! cool stuff Cool

Quote:
2. The allied side should have at least some air reconnaissance the first days of the campaign, thus at least some Intel on German BG movements behind the front

somehow they didn't have in reality and didn't know 12SS was already around Caen.

OK. But didn't they bomb their columns moving into Normandy? If so, just a randomly hint in regard to a couple of German BGs.

Quote:
3. On every map there should be a small German BG, only company size perhaps, like in LSA. In that way the allies cant just advance unhindered when the German player makes big mistakes in the first two days.

that will not be, at least in next ver.


Dima are you planning to transform TRSM into other versions than TLD too?
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

tigercub wrote (View Post):
Hi Dima was thinking about squad changes for the brits we talked about dont realy see what can be done ,brits they were a pretty boring bunch when it came to inf weapons.


CC-CO
Having a change of hart a little?

get to the 16th-18th and then i would like to know what your thinking.

love your AARs

Tiger


Hi Tiger

Thanks!

No change of heart - so far. If we continue our current pace of gaming we will reach the 17th / 18th in some weeks from now. We have played for 3 weeks now, and are close to the PM turn of the 10th.

In my present GC - also being my first real GC as Germans, I have made some very grave mistakes against a player who knows the GC and the game, much better than I do. Thus had I not moved out of Buron, we would probably still be fighting there. Same goes for Lebisey Woods. Had I not moved out we would also still be fighting there, with the battle in my favour that is.

I think though that the German side of the campaign is just much more difficult for any new player, while the Allied side is rather easy for any new player. Easy due to the fact the allies has so many resources, and of course the opposite for the German.

For instance, had I been more careless about my grenadier looses in Ouistreham, I think I would have been able prolong the fight much longer on this map. I just lost it, the last turn, the 10th AM turn, however I have been fighting here since the 6th and still don't think I fully understand the defensive potential this map offers.
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: Re: TRSM 982 - the GC is Balanced Reply with quote

Suggestion:

I have experienced that it is possible on Ouistreham, to prolong the defensive fight for quite some time.

So I think it would be useful with some ammo or supply dumps, placed on the map it self. Thus not just on the strategic map.

Supply and Ammo Dumps like for instance inside the big bunkers, where the German troops deployed here, would have full supplies for as long as 5 days, should they bee able to hold them even when being cut off from the rest of the front.

This would give the allied player a better beach-challenge I think, thus not as in most games, where the German player simply withdraw after the first battle. Also, as the German player, it adds something to the game experience, when you still on the 10th have soldiers fighting on the beach. It is probably in most campaigns impossible to reach the beach, however, its just cool and feel more realistic when German units cut off in strong-points keep on fighting for days after having been cut off.





Another logistical idea, could be that the German player in turn one on the 6th of June, gets to place the ammo dumps available on the strategic map. This would probably add to the replay experience in the long run, since some maps would still be in full supply even when cut off.

Luftwaffe strong point Douvre, or battery Marcouf for instance, had supplies availble for several days after having been cut off. Douvre fought until the 17th! even though it was located only a few kilometres from Sword beach. Same with Marcouf; here Ohmsen and his grenadiers fought until the 11th. The Americans captured Marcouf undefended the 12th.
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